Driven to Succeed: Navigating Your Trucking Career with Joe and Caleb from Truck Drivers Best

In this episode, Lindsey talks with Joe Anderson and Caleb Gee, both experienced figures in the trucking industry, discuss their new book, "Take Control of Your Driving Career: A How-to Guide."

They introduce their backgrounds, highlighting Caleb's transition from construction to trucking at Nussbaum Transportation and Joe's long-term commitment to the company since 2012. The conversation emphasizes the importance of drivers thoroughly researching potential employers and advocating for in-person visits and detailed discussions with recruiters to address critical factors like pay and working conditions. They aim to empower truck drivers to make informed career decisions while addressing challenges such as high turnover rates in the industry. Future plans include an audiobook version and expanding resources to assist companies in improving driver retention. Listeners are encouraged to visit truckdriversbest.com for more information and to purchase the guide.

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Transcript

Hey, welcome to NGT Talks, and I'm really excited about the show today, and I think you are going to glean a lot of great information. But first, I want to just thank our sponsors. Thank you to performance food Group and to act one and CH Robinson for sponsoring our podcast and making what we do possible. You know, our goal out there is to make trucking a positive career choice and to help schools and connect the industry. So with that being said today, I want to welcome Joe Anderson and Caleb Gee. Thank you for being on the show today, gentlemen. 

Thanks for having us. 

So one of the questions I always love to start off asking is, how did you get into the trucking industry? What's your story? 

Go ahead. 

So I came from the construction industry, so I spent seven or eight years, probably half of that, swinging a hammer and roofing and things like that. And one day called up a company that lived close by or was close by to where I lived, and it was new spam transportation and decided to go to work for them as a driver manager. And so, yeah, kind of a weird whole industry shift. Sometimes people relate the construction and transportation industries together, and there are quite a few similarities, but, yeah, just decided that didn't want to do that anymore, so here I am. 

Here you are. Awesome. How long have you been doing working for Nussbaum? 

So I've been at Nussbaum for a total of probably right, at seven years, maybe more. So, yeah, that was in a nine year timeframe and kind of a year and a half break in between doing something else. So, yeah. 

That's great, Joe, how about you? 

Well, the funny thing is, Caleb didn't mention his first contact with Nussbaum Washington. He actually got into our driver lead chain funnel, basically. So, like, he texted, I got, like, a lead from him, and I was a driver recruiter, so I texted him, and that was how we first met. And then he realized pretty quickly I was just hiring drivers, so then directed him to the HR, you know, director. So just kind of funny to look back on. Yeah. Yep, yep. So I came from. From high school, actually had just graduated and started here back in 2012. So this is really the only place I've worked. And that was my first. Yeah, my first real job, I would say. And then obviously first transportation job, too. So every experience, every trucking related thing has been shaped by my time at Nussbaum. 

And it's not a glamorous story. My brother actually worked here, and so I kind of. 

Your brother? 

That's. Yeah, pretty typical. And then, honestly, as we've grown to. That's pretty common for here at Nussbaum specifically, is that a lot of referrals and family friends recommend it. So I was not planning at all to, I was going to go to college. That was the plan. But had kind of drugged my feet on really what I wanted to do and then got offered this job and just, yeah, the rest is history. 

So I love that because we need that message to go out there more that you don't have to go to college to be successful. You can go right into the workforce and build your skills through your employer. So that is very cool. Love that path. And we're seeing a trend. There's a lot of articles coming out every day where Gen Z, they're questioning that college path and saying, do I want to do this and get all this debt or do I want to go into the workforce or even get a technical degree? And I know we in the trucking industry are excited to see these trends and these shifts, but the reason I have you all on the call today is because you wrote a book. And not just a book, it's really a how to guide. It's take control of your driving career. 

A how to guide. And I read it. I loved how simple it was. It's a quick read, but it gives you practical steps in taking control of your driving career. Right. So why did you all did this? Why did you decide to write this book? 

Yeah, Caleb. Caleb had the original idea, so I'll let him answer that. 

Yeah. So I am, we, Joe and I kind of laugh at our personality types. I'm very much a, like, I have a lot of ideas and hey, this is great. But when it comes to now doing those things, not so great. Joe's very good at details and a lot of those things as well. So, yeah, Joe really authored the book and a lot of this came from just the lot of the conversations we have every day, whether it be somebody that's looking to get a CDL, somebody that's had a CDL for 30 years, some of the just things that you hear on the phone from drivers that you're going, wow, nobody has trained this person on how to get a good job and stay in a good job. 

The industry's had people for years that have tried to kind of help change that lower turnover. And we all know turnover is atrocious in the trucking industry, but economics a lot of times allows for that. And so you don't have a ton of incentive on the company side to change the things you're doing, if that's part of your business model. And so our thought was that, okay, we didn't know of anybody that's actually focusing on the driver. How do you train them, whether they're fresh out of school or maybe it's a guy that's been driving for 25 years, and in those 25 years, he's had 18 jobs. No. How do you. What questions should you ask? What. 

How do you vet this company that you're talking to that maybe you did ask all the right questions and they give you all the right answers, but how do you know they told you the truth? And that's kind of where it stemmed from? Is that okay, if we can get ahold of enough drivers where they know how to do this effectively, you would then force change in the industry because companies wouldn't be able to either provide very little information or the wrong information, if that makes sense. 

Yeah. And so part of early on a chapter is a change in thinking. What is the change in thinking that needs to happen? 

Well, so kind of like Caleb said there, so, like, were talking before went live about the recruiting and retention conference in Nashville, there's. That's a really, you know, if you're in the trucking industry, you have been for very long. You've probably been there, heard of it. It's really well done and a lot of good info there, but it's really. It's catered to the companies and to the. To the carriers, to the recruiters, the hiring managers, whatever. And so that's kind of the change in thinking is like, well, I guess from my own perspective, every year I go, I enjoy it, and I hear something different, I would say, but it's always kind of the same. Like, you know, what is it this year that drivers are really needing? 

What do we need to do to keep drivers like, this year, their top concern is the equipment. You know, next year it's pay. I mean, obviously, pay is always a big one. Like, what can we do to keep our drivers better, hire better, retain them better? And that's obviously important and all good. Definitely not saying anything negative about that. But what's missing is the, like Caleb said, the focus on the driver. So the change in thinking is just simply like, what if we could start with the driver? And first of all, say, you know, hey, you know, well, one big thing we would say is just research. You know, probably not a lot of enough research gets done by drivers on choosing which carrier. So let's train them how to do that. 

How to really take their time, you know, equate it with buying a house or even a vehicle or choosing which college to go to. If you're doing that, like, you don't do that stuff overnight, but in trucking you literally can choose your next job overnight. I mean, if you have a rough Friday, there are places that will take you on Monday with very few questions asked. And if you're a driver that's really frustrated, that might sound pretty good in the moment. You know, two weeks later, the reality sinks in. This place actually wasn't that much better. Then there's regret and now they've added a notch to their job history belt and that if that keeps happening, pretty soon they're stuck in this cycle that they can't break out of. It seems like. 

So our change in thinking is like, before all that happens, train the driver because they don't have anyone that's really going to bat for them, at least as far as we've seen. You know, there are people out there that are trying to do that on small scales and, you know, maybe an individual person has a family friend that's giving them advice. But what we feel like we bring is that experience on the other side of things that a driver just simply can't have working in the office. And so we've both been in the recruiting department for, I mean, going on 20 years of total experience in the recruiting department now. 

So I think, and I was maybe going to mention this later, one of the challenges we might face is a driver thinking, well, who are you to tell me what to do in this driving industry? You're not a driver. Like, you don't have a clue what it's like being out on the road, dealing with life, dealing with motorists, the conditions, all that stuff. And it's true, we don't, and we're not going to even try to pretend to give advice on that. We're just simply talking about, hey, we do know what recruiters look for, what good recruiters look for, what good carriers are looking for and what they should be looking for. So, like, if you're a driver on the phone and you're just getting asked the bare minimum questions and then they're ready to bring you in, like, that's a red flag right there. 

So we do kind offer that unique perspective, unique to drivers anyway, because we've worked on this side of things for so long. So that's, so our change in thinking is how many drivers can we get a hold of? You know, ideally before they get started. And that's kind of where like your business does, making such a difference on the front end, getting into the younger generation before they even get stuck in that cycle. But there's also a lot of drivers that have been doing it for 10, 15, 20 years that we think need some of this advice, this consulting, whatever you want to call it. 

Just a few coaching, right? 

Yeah, coaching. Yeah. Yep. Just. Just to give them a few extra tools in their tool belt because this career is. I mean, we're biased. This is all, again, this is all I've worked in and Caleb's been in it for a long time, but I really think a professional truck driver, the career offers is just extremely. There's so much potential there. Let's just say it like that. Especially if you start off young and you don't make some of those mistakes. I mean, kids can be making six figures, you know, in their mid twenties if they're on with a good carrier and they just put their nose down and they try to take advantage of the different incentives that care offers and, you know, make a really good career out of it. Now, obviously, it's a huge sacrifice. 

A lot of it's over the road and, you know, if they're. They've got family, like, that's really hard. You know, that is one thing that will not change from the over the road lifestyle is that's gonna be hard. But what makes us sad is when someone is willing to accept that and make that sacrifice and then don't fully take advantage of all the good things it offers, which is, you know, if you get on with a good carrier, great pay and benefits over a long career and retire, you know, be successful, that's ultimately what we're trying to do is help truckers be successful. 

And I love that. And in the book you talk about the roadmap and part of that roadmap is like what you said, researching the carrier, but another part you talk about is examining the self. What does that mean? Like, who's examining themselves and what are they asking? 

Yeah, and I. We smile just because we don't expect, like, and Caleb cut me off whenever on the recruiting side of things, we don't expect someone to be perfect when they call in. Like, we don't. We just want someone to be real and open and honest. But there are times where it feels like someone doesn't try that hard, you know, or maybe they call it the worst time, like they're calling when they're upset. So our first impression of them is, wow, this guy's angry. And we know, like, we can filter that out. Like, okay, there could be any number of things that just happened to cause that. If I was in his shoes, I'd maybe be the exact same, but it's still not a great first impression. 

So I think the examine, we go into more detail in the book, but ultimately examine yourself is, like, make sure that you know, how you come across, you know, I think we mentioned in there having a trusted friend, someone that's not afraid to be honest with you, telling you like, no, you can, you know, sometimes you can come off a little bit arrogant or a little bit strong or whatever it is, and just be aware of that. We're not. We're not asking you to come on and not be who you are, of course, but there is something to be said for trying to make a good impression and be respectful. And, you know, there's a balance there. And I. And we don't want to go too heavy into that, but I think sometimes that aspect is completely lost. 

And so we just want to make a note of it. Like, before you start calling recruiters and companies, make sure that you kind of know how you come across and what feeling you might leave somebody with the way you communicate. And then I think we also say just to make sure that you're really ready for a job change again, it's not an overnight thing. So, like, you know, and if you're thinking, you know, a year down the road is when you might be switching, then I guess I don't fault you for making a call now and putting feelers out there. But I guess just really make sure you're ready to do this. 

You're at a right time of life if you're married, that your spouse is on board, that your family's in a stage, just checking all those boxes to make sure before you start calling recruiters and getting processes rolling. Because if you put too many feelers out there and a company starts to think of you as the guy that just calls in every couple months to. To ask about stuff, you know, they might get a little bit burned out with you because it seems like you're never serious or never ready. So just before you start doing that, just really make sure you got your ducks in a row, that it's the right time, and that there's so much more that we can go into on that. 

But I think just to add to it is just besides personality, how you. How you sound on the phone, things like that. Also having somebody or even yourself trying to step back and look at your own resume, if you will. Most places going to be just a simple application, but when you call and you've been driving for a year and you want a job and you've been at three companies already. Well, we can filter out. Once you're in the trucking industry for long enough, you can look at some of the companies and go, yeah, I bet you didn't have a great time, know, depending on which ones they were at. So that's okay. But it also tells me something about that person. 

Like if you've been at three different companies in your first year, this tells me you're not thinking through these moves at all. And so there can be some grace there. But also going back to mixing that with personality. When you get every place I've gotten to is a bad company, this and that. And you start looking at things and it's like six places said they wouldn't rehire you. That's a problem. That tells me you're leaving. Not in a good light. You're being angry, you're making rash decisions. So stepping back and going, okay, what would a good company look for on an application or combined with that personality aspect as well. 

Yeah. And that's one of the parts of the roadmap. Right. Is preserve your record. And so I'm sure that can really span a lot of things. Right. Your driving record, your hiring record. So tell. Tell us a little bit about how a driver should consider that they need to preserve their record. 

I can start unless you got. 

No. Go ahead. 

Well, so, yeah, Caleb mentioned work history is a big one. Obviously, driving like, you know, we look pretty heavily at a driver's safety record. Their MVR, you know, obviously, ideally don't speed, stuff like that, but the work history seemed like the MVR and all that's just common knowledge that's ingrained in any of us that got a license at 16. You know, you just know that you try to keep that clean. The. The work history seems to be the one that people just don't really realize, kind of how, like almost the snowball effect. I mean, we've seen applications with, you know, ten years of work history that might have had as many as upper twenties, maybe even 30 different employment stints in them. So that's extreme. But so that is a big part of that, preserving your record. 

What I would say, I think Caleb mentioned, I think he used the word rash. We do feel like drivers can make decisions too quickly, not necessarily just even when I considering their next employer, but just even to leave the place that they're at, you know, it can be easy sometimes. An employer might do really well by a driver, a company might do well by a driver for six months or eight months or a year, whatever it is. But then a couple things happen, a few things happen, and there's a couple rough weeks and if that has you looking for your next job, then we would say that's maybe being a little bit hasty, you know? 

So if you're thinking that it's time for the next job, I guess this kind of goes back to what I was saying, just really evaluate this. Is, is it for something that could be fixed here? Because sometimes it can be. You know, if you're, if your wife just had a baby and she needs you home every day, and the company you're at only can get you home once a week, then of course, like, that's a no brainer. You gotta, you gotta start looking. But if it's like, you know, there's been this issue the last couple weeks. I've had a couple loads that were put on me late, and I felt like they didn't communicate with me very well. And I was kind of just left hanging. Just realize there's so much behind the scenes, you know? 

Again, if you've been there for eight months or a year and that really hasn't been an issue, but now it's happened two or three times in a couple weeks, well, it could be any number of things. They might have a new person that they're training up. You know, everybody's got to start somewhere. You know, someone might have been off on vacation, someone's filling in that's not quite as well versed, doesn't know exactly what the relationship that driver manager had with the driver and how they like to be communicated with. And this is just one example, but basically take stock of like, is this really fair to the company? Should I be really, should I be thinking about leaving? 

Or can I look back over the last year and realize they've done a lot of things right by me and I've got a year of tenure in now. I don't want to just throw that away for nothing. So just, yeah, preserving your record. Because if you do leave, maybe that next job is the one that you love and you stay there forever. And that's great, you know, no harm comes of it. But more often than not, at least we feel like we see a lot. The grass was just greener. It wasn't, it wasn't truly greener. I guess I should put it that way. They may ask to come back a month or two later. Sometimes we can't, sometimes we won't. Depending on the situation. 

At the very least, even if they do come back again, they've added another job of their work history, which over time, if the mentality is that's not a big deal, it will start to cost them, and eventually it will keep them from really being able to get hired by a good carrier, because we do look at those things very seriously. You know, I try not to mention Nussbaum too much in this, just because this, what we're doing in this is not connected to Newspum, but we do like to think that we are, you know, have something pretty good to offer. Like we're going to be able to take care of a driver and, you know, maybe do better by them than the previous company, but not necessarily. 

And there's a lot of things that happen in trucking that will happen here, too. So if you're frustrated by things that are just trucking, things, going to another carrier is not necessarily going to fix that. So I guess maybe that's something I would point out, too, is really trying to hone in on. What is the reason I'm leaving? And is it truly something this company is responsible for and is just not fixing, or is it trucking? Is it me? Is it something we can work through? Just don't leave so quick, you know, because we just, we see a lot of regret later. 

So you in the book. What, what if I am a driver? I'm having a hard time with my employer. What do you say? What are the steps I should take to try to rectify that with my employer? 

Sure. Yeah. I think you need to look at your particular situation. This is going to be different for everybody, right? The guy that needs to be home daily working an over the road job, that's going to be a whole different circumstance than the guy that stays out a month at a time and doesn't really care. He just wants miles and money. And so again, though, bringing that back to just on the, as far as the not leaving so quickly, because even if it's a, you know, but by all sense of the word, a bad company, like, let's say it's a company that, yeah, you know, their turnover is 95% and nobody really likes them. But this is your third job in nine months. 

That's the guy I would probably say, listen, I know it stinks, but I would stay there for as long as you can handle it, just so you can get on, you know, just so if you want to talk to a good company, they're going to look and go, wow, he stuck it out. And if it's a company at 95% turnover, a good company out there is going to see your app and go, wow, you stuck it out there that long, they're going to know that without you having to bad mouth them or anything else like that. And so, yeah, just trying to, I guess with that it's just going to be different for everybody. 

I mean, the guy that needs to be home daily, his wife just had a baby or his mom's sick or whatever, well, you're probably going to have to take a pay cut, get that. So in that case, a lot of times it's a local company, something like that. Now you need to start talking to people in your area that work for some of these local companies, see if it is truly a good deal or what you're being promised or any of those things as well before you make that jump to do that. So, yeah, trying to fit your needs in with also what a good company would look for. 

And we say good company because, you know, a good company for one guy might not be a good company for another guy, but I would say a company you want to drive for because if you get stuck in this spot where everybody's noted that they don't want to hire you back, you have numerous jobs. That cycle is never going to end for you. You're just going to keep hop. That's where it's like, no, stick it out somewhere that way. Then the next conversation with the company you actually want to drive for can be, hey, I'm, yes, this has not gone well, but I stuck it out here because I know my record's terrible. We would hire that guy in a heartbeat over the guy that just says, yeah, whatever, you know, I'll get another job next Monday. 

And I think part of that, not to, you know, trail off too much, but there's not a ton of jobs out there, just in the country in general where you can make between 81 hundred grandd and get mad on a Thursday and have a new job on Monday making the same amount of money. 

That's true. 

That bites so many guys because they take advantage of that one too many times. That makes sense. So just being careful with that using wisdom. 

And we mentioned the one exception in the book. I think we say if there are companies where they're downright unsafe, you know, their equipment is falling apart, they're not willing to fix it. And so we do say, you know, if you're in an unsafe situation, then obviously that's different. Every situation is different. And so we can't make any blanket statements that apply to everyone out there. You know, obviously sometimes you just gotta, you gotta put your record first in that way. Preserve your driving, actual, your driving record and say, I can't haul this, you know, I'm gonna get stopped. Dot officer is gonna write me up, or maybe worse. But yeah, a lot of times it's not that. It's more the stuff caleb was talking about. 

And it really speaks volumes to us if we see someone willing to stick it out when maybe it just wasn't the perfect scenario for them, but whether they wanted to honor something they said. Because sometimes a driver might say, well, I give everybody at least twelve months. So if they're telling us, hey, I told them that, so I need to be there a couple more months, hey, that even if they've had a few jobs before that's worth a lot right there. And their recent work history, that twelve months of, you know, one employer, even if they've had a few bounce around before that's going to speak volumes too. So that is the type of stuff we look for. And we want drivers to know that. 

It'S really you all teaching the driver a process in order to get their next job. Or say, hey, I'm going to stay at this job. And we all follow processes. I know you as recruiters follow a process. So is there any other part of your, how to guide your process that you want to recommend for drivers? 

Well, so we do go pretty heavy into the research and the carrier, and I know we've mentioned that so I won't stay on that too long, but, and that goes beyond just, you know, I googled them and read a few reviews. I mean, that's part of it. Google has, you know, that can show reviews from the angry motorists that got cut off by one of their drivers. And if you're seeing that all over the place on Google, then maybe that's a sign that their drivers aren't trained that well or something. But you know, so you gotta, you know, you're talking to the recruiter and you're getting the words from their mouth and what they're hearing, that's, that's all part of it. But really go beyond just what they're telling you. So research. 

I mean, there's a number of different resources. Truckers report indeed. Glassdoor. I think we mentioned Google and then there's different social media platforms. YouTube, I think, you know, is probably becoming a bigger one. Sometimes you can even find driver influencers that work for those companies that have their own YouTube channels. So spend time searching that and see what you can find a day in the life of one of their drivers. And then we put this in here too. And it's kind of funny because on the, we don't require this and it can actually slow a higher process down. But if I'm a driver, I would want to go and meet them in person before I started there. And that's hard to do. I realize that. 

That is another thing that's unique about this industry is that, you know, you can, like Caleb mentioned, you can have a new job on Monday and you can do it without even really having ever met them. You know, maybe not even any sort of Zoom or teams interview either, just all over the phone. There's not that many industries where you can do that. So I would say we should be more like other industries. At least if I'm a driver, I should want to go in and meet them in person. See the, see the terminal, you know, just get a lay at the lay of the land, how it feels when I walk through there. 

What's the, what is the, you can get a sense of the culture just walking through a building, you know, if everyone's just silent or there's yelling or swearing or whatever. You know, maybe that's just kind of a sign right there. You know, they don't know who you are. They don't know necessarily that, you know, obviously the recruiter that you're there to meet will know, but they're probably going to be themselves when you're walking through. So that might give you an indicator. And then you get to meet the person that's hiring you in person if they'll allow it. Now, if the company doesn't for some reason allow that, then I would also kind of wonder why, you know, that might be something I would scratch my brain at. 

So if you can at all possible get in there in person, even if it's just 15 to 20 minutes. Again, going back to the house analogy, you're not, probably not going to buy a house too often that you have not seen. It does happen, obviously. But a car, you know, a college, you're always visiting in person. Why should this be so different? And I, I would guess Caleb can correct me. I mean, it's probably less than 10% of drivers that ask to do that. Maybe far less. 

Oh, far less. Yeah. 

And granted, sometimes they live multiple states away, and it's tough. You know, they're not necessarily always taking a week off between jobs. You know, you can't just drop at the drop of a hat, go visit a place. But we have allowed drivers, if they're on route and they don't mind just parking their rig nearby and coming in, you know, they got a 30 minutes break or whatever they got. You know, we're fine with that sometimes, too. 

I don't think we directly touch on it in the book, but it goes hand in hand with research as far as talking to other drivers that have worked there, do work there. We touched on a little bit as we're talking here, but even economically, so like something we saw both sides of. So kind of the post Covid boom, right? These great years for the trucking industry. There's freight to be hauled everywhere. Spot markets crazy. There's not enough drivers to haul it. All of a sudden that starts tanking, starts going down. So kind of ties in with what were just talking about as well. You have a guy that's mad. I'm not making a ton of money anymore. My miles went down at the company I'm at. 

Well, I'm going to go to this company because they're, you know, they told me they're doing great. Well, just a simple conversation with another driver that worked there could tell you that, no, that's just economics. Like that's happening across the board. You're going to come over here and it's going to be the exact same thing. And so, yeah, we had seen that with guys that were trying to come on. We had seen that also with guys that would leave that, oh, I'm going to go be an owner operator. Listen, you missed the boat. Like, you should have done that a year and a half ago. If you're going to do that now, you're going to bankrupt yourself. Gas shot up, you're not going to fuel shot up, you're not going to have freight to haul. 

So even just doing your research on, okay, what's going on on them, the macroeconomy that could be impacting any place you're going to work could be important as well. 

Yeah. So research is huge, and we do feel like that gets missed. And then probably, to answer your question, Lindsey, as far as just integral parts of the process. Probably the biggest one, though still. I don't know. I don't want to necessarily put one above the other, but just the simple conversations with the recruiter or at newspaum, we call them driver hiring manager because we can actually, they can hire the driver. They're not just, they're not just recruiting, they're actually taking it all the way. So the conversations with that person are so important. Like it's so obvious, it's almost silly to say. And yet if we didn't force talking points in those conversations, we, as the company side did not bring things up. I mean, we could probably do those conversations in five or ten minutes half the time. 

So some drivers may only ask about the paper mile, what year of truck, and when they can start. You know, it's different. Some, some are a lot more detailed and want to know down to the, you know, just the specific specs of the truck, you know, but a lot of people are more just the basics. So that is so huge. And if a company is a good company, they're probably going to force that in the conversation and you're probably going to be taken care of because they're gonna bring up exactly how the home time works, all the nuances of it. They're gonna bring up, you know, what happens when weeks don't go as planned, how they take care of you. 

They're gonna bring up the little things like, you know, most of our freight is in the midwest, but you will have to go to certain areas you probably don't like. You know, stuff like that bring the good and the bad, the ugly. But if you're not talking to a good carrier and if you haven't done your research, you won't necessarily know that they won't do that. I mean, I, again, not to make too many blanket statements, but the risk you're running is that carrier is not going to put that in. If you're willing to just ask a few questions and sign the bottom line, that's better for them, you know, chances are not in the long run, we would argue, but that it gets you in the door. 

And so it's so important to have your list of things that are important to you and that should be, I guess, want to be careful how I say this. That should be decently long. I don't mean that you should have a ton of deal breakers. Like if they don't check every little box for me, if they're, if their trucks aren't blue, you know, it's not that type of thing. But there's enough things that can impact a driver's overall happiness and satisfaction that it shouldn't be just a couple. A couple things like, you should have a list of things that you want to at least know about. Again, if you're married, so you can tell your spouse, so you can talk to your family, will this work? 

And if you're single, still applies to whatever your social life is on the weekends, you better know exactly how their home time works and how often you'll even be home on the weekends. And there's so much there that we don't get asked on a regular basis and that we have to ask ourselves, which is fine, we're going to do it regardless. But not every company will do that. So that is a huge part of it, is just making sure you're talking through things. And then if they can give you something to refer back to, whether it's a couple emails with some information on it or you, even if they hand you something in orientation, I would still want to get something before I came. I'm not saying that you have to get everything written down and they have to sign it. 

You're not signing a contract, anything like that. But just like, for example, we will provide actual data of our home time. We'll say based on 2022 or 2020. Three's numbers here is how often drivers are home for 40 to 44 hours. We get pretty specific. So if they're interested in knowing the behind the scenes, all the nitty gritty, they can find that and they have it in writing. They can refer back to it. So we'd recommend asking for that. If a company is not, you know, upfront, just saying, hey, we're going to provide you with all this. So the talking is super important, but having it to refer back to. We also mentioned taking notes during the conversation because you know, you're going to forget. Drivers like to drive while they talk, which is, which makes sense, understandable. 

That's what they're doing. Put the headset on, drive down the road, and call some recruiters. I would caution that, though, just because I don't think you can multitask as well as you think you can, like, I do think you will forget things that were important. And if you're talking to ten other recruiters, ten other companies, it's just, it can become a jumbled mess and you might end up signing on with a carrier that you actually don't know what I mean. And we've had as thorough as we try to be in our own process, we've still had people in orientation ask like now what am I making again? Like what are you paying me? And it's like, man, you'd think that would be like one of the main things they would have ironed out well before they get here, right? 

So absorbing the information, making sure they're whatever it is, note taking, getting it sent to them in writing, just a way so they don't forget the information and making sure that it's checking the boxes that they need it to check. Otherwise, don't ever go there. Even if the mileage rate is so great that, you know, at the truck stop you're going to be able to have the highest mileage rate. And I don't mean to demean anyone with that, but sometimes it can feel like that it's just a bragging rights. You know, how high is the cents per mile? Even if that is so high, you know, if they're not checking all the other boxes, or at least a majority of them, then you shouldn't ever be going there in the first place. 

Yeah, I think that's a great point, to take notes, to have a list of questions, make sure you're asking them and to make sure you're writing down those answers so that you can go back to it and really reflect and determine, is this going to be a good fit for me? I love the purpose of your book. It's to improve the careers of many truckers and to help lower driver turnover. And this is what it's all about. We want the jobs in the trucking industry to better and we want care drivers to find the carriers that are going to be a good fit for their family. What's next in your plan? I mean, you are trying to get this book out. Where can somebody find this book? 

If I'm a driver or if I have a driving school, is this a good book for them, for students? Who is this for and where can I find it? 

Go ahead. 

Sure. Yeah, no, if you go to our website, truckdriversbest.com, you can find, I think you can actually get a chapter of it for free if you enter your email. But yeah, the books for sale on there, if you enjoy the book and you want to spend some time with Joe or I, you can do that on there as well. And that's kind of our just kind of looking at when we started this and what we want to do. How do we provide more value for drivers to get them this information to help change the mindset to get them in these good positions or right fits for each guy. And so we've talked about making the book an audiobook as well. Obviously, for drivers, that's much better than reading it. 

We don't encourage reading it while you're driving unless we get it to you as an audiobook. We are also looking at what can we provide for companies? Again, we don't want to be just another person, admittedly. Like, when you look at the business side of this, a lot of anytime there's somebody that's out there to lower turnover, typically the first place they go is companies because that's where the money's at. Right. When. When companies are spending five to ten grand to bring in one person, it means nothing to give a coach or an advisor or something like that. 15 grand. Okay, great. Hopefully we can save 30. And so we really wanted to focus on the driver, and obviously, that's more of a long term goal. That's a. Yeah. How many can we help to help perpetuate that change in the industry? 

But we haven't ruled out yet helping companies. And what could we offer there that would actually make a difference versus just kind of the same talking points that would just kind of keep things status quo, if that makes sense. Do you have anything to add, Joe? 

No. You covered both the things I was going to mention in the book. We say basically, you know, we're focusing on drivers because we feel like they're kind of a little bit of the victims in this, where, you know, there's a lot of companies out there that are established that have questionable recruiting processes. And so we want to prepare the driver more, arm them better to be successful. And we kind of say, like, you know, there's a lot of good companies out there that do want to better, but there are companies, I think, that have processes that just, they check different incentive boxes for them where they don't necessarily want to change. And so we kind of say they don't necessarily want to change. And so we're trying to help the driver. That that's, again, not a blanket statement. 

And so I do think that we could be very interested in talking to recruiters, recruiting departments, you know, that side of things, too, because that's obviously what we've been doing all this time. We just felt like the group of people that was not really actively being helped was the driver, so. But, no, I think you cover that pretty well. Oh, go ahead. 

Oh, sorry. No, I was just going to say, to answer the other part of Lindsay's question too. It's for any drivers because we find the same problems across the board. I think the earlier you can catch somebody coming into the industry, the better. There's a lot of people that have been in the industry for a long time that they would not appreciate any of the advice we're giving. We have experienced some of that where, I guess tying in the research aspect, too, our overarching goal is get out of this mindset of cents per mile. The first question, I can't tell you how many times I pick up the phone and the first thing out of somebody's mouth is, what's your cents per mile? Who cares? 

I can give you $2 a mile, but if I have, I finally run you 300 miles a week, you still only made $600. So the problem is you have this vicious cycle of here's guys have been doing it for 20 years. That's how they've been coached to go find a new job. And now, you know, that's some other guy that's getting in the industry's uncle, hey, who should I go work for? Well, not this place. Not this place. Not this place. And the first question should be, what's your sense per month mile? It's like, no. So it's like, ideally, if we could catch everybody right out of CDL school, great, we could kind of stop that in its tracks. 

But we're also happy to help guys that have been in the industry for ten years or 20 years that haven't figured out how do I get at a good place and get to stay there? 

Well, I have to say, I thought the book was really good. It was written well. It was a quick read, easy to understand and follow the process. And I think that anybody should buy this book. Any driver, any new entrant, being a driver, should buy this book and should really utilize this roadmap for their career. So thank you for writing it and you're doing, and hopefully we'll see good changes happen. And really you wrote it because you want to help people. And so the changes that we hope to see happen are going to be good changes for the better of the driver. Thank you for being on the show today and I appreciate what you all do. We will put your website in the show notes. 

So if you want to get linked to their book, look in the show notes and get a copy of this book. It's an easy read and there's lots of helpful hints to it and I think an audio version would be great. I am a. I always listen to audio books and podcasts so. Well, thank you both for being on the show. And if there's a way that somebody can connect with you, tell us again what your website is. 

Truckdriversbest.com. 

Truckdriversbest.Com. Go to their website, check it out and be on your route to a great, long lasting career in trucking. Thank you again to our sponsors for sponsoring our show. And we appreciate being able to make the industry better and to bring young people into the industry. Joe and Caleb, thanks for what you all do. 

Thank you. Lindsay, thanks for having us. Appreciate it a lot. Enjoyed it.